CRB check hearsay costs innocent man job
I have been contacted by a man who has missed out on a job after his CRB clearance arrived back with uncorroborated and false allegations of misconduct. I won’t go into the circumstances, to protect his identity, but the facts speak for themselves regardless.
He applied for a job working in proximity to young people, but certainly not in a position of authority, and certainly not alone with them. He had to undergo a CRB check, and although I am not convinced of the merits of this safeguard in the first place, what happened next is a shocking indictment of the process itself.
Despite never having a criminal record, his CRB check made reference to complaints made against him, to the police, by a neighbour with whom he’d been involved in a dispute. These claims were entirely unsubstantiated, uncorroborated, and untrue. But they were made and recorded, and despite them never going anywhere near a court of law, were disclosed to the CRB when a check was made. They were reported to the man and his prospective employer when the disclosure was returned, and he wasn’t given the job.
It happened to a man I don’t know. But it could have happened to me or to you, and we should all be worried about that.
That this is allowed to happen in a country supposedly governed by fair laws is a disgrace. That a person can be labelled a criminal despite never having been convicted of a crime, and on the unsubstantiated claims of one other person alone, is a disgrace. That an official government agency that is used to verify the character of millions of people applying for millions of jobs can make reference to unreliable information is a disgrace when that information can stop people from living their lives, and for no good reason.
I have seen some of the correspondence between this man, the police, his MP and the CRB. He has now received assurances that the allegations have been investigated, found to be false, and will be removed from the CRB disclosure. But the fact that he had to undertake such efforts to clear his name cannot be right. That the CRB process allows for unproven allegations, hearsay and rumour to be reported if the police have it on file and consider it relevant is just plain wrong. How can we have faith in a system that allows for this type of evidence to make its way into a CRB disclosure if it never goes near a courtroom or a jury?
And it doesn’t end there. Although only the enhanced CRB disclosures can contain this “relevant and proportionate information held by the local police forces,” this hearsay which is probably the worst type of evidence to find its way into disclosures, even the basic disclosures can include police cautions, reprimands and warnings. None of these three punishments are meted out outside of a police station, and as anyone with any connection to the criminal justice system will admit, the recipients often don’t fully know what they’re agreeing to when they agree to be cautioned or reprimanded or warned. The harsh reality is that they’re agreeing to have that caution or reprimand or warning reported on a CRB form even years later. I don’t think that’s necessarily fair.
I appreciate the need to safeguard vulnerable people. It is vital that children, vulnerable adults and the elderly are protected from people who might do them harm. But the system needs improving when it starts affecting people who have never done anything wrong in their lives, when their reputations are sullied by unproven allegations. The CRB process is inherently flawed, and will remain so as long as the disclosure continues to allow for this type of information to be revealed. It is extremely hard to challenge, impossible to remove without substantial efforts on behalf of the accused, and does only damage to a system in which we need to have the highest amount of faith.
Rick
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The very same thing happened to me. I was a school teacher, working on supply in the summer of 2007, and I got arrested by Merseyside police, somebody from a forum I used contacted the police and said I was asking for indecent pictures, this was
well, just a pure lie, I never did any such thing. The police however, and only god knows why, kicked my door in on the 13/7/2007 at 6.30am, and arrested me on suspicion of possessing indecent photographs. I was taken to a police station, and 6 hours later, after a very brief interview with the police, all of 10 minutes, I was released on bail. I didn’t hear anything from the police until 17 months later when they again knocked on my door, returning all the computer equipment they had taken when they arrested me, they told me they wouldn’t be pursuing the matter any further - ( like I didn’t already know). I have tried to contact Merseyside police for the last 3 months, asking why and upon what evidence that they decided to arrest me in the first place, but no one has been decent enough to even explain this to me. It has come to something, when someone online who might not like you, although they have never met you, never seen you, would not know you from Adam and they can through sheer maliciousness destroy your career. You might not believe this can happen in the uk, but I’m living proof it can, and has happened. I wasn’t charged, cautioned or anything, but I was suspended by the agency I worked for 17 months, I have lost considerable income through earnings over that period, my reputation is totally destroyed, and I doubt very much whether I will ever work as a teacher again – ( actually I wouldn’t go near a school again after this, but that really isn’t the point). This is the UK we now live in, are you speechless? I really don’t know what to do about it, I can’t sue them apparently because I wasn’t charged. I can’t even begin to explain how this had me feel, I don’t think anyone would really understand, you’d have to had lived through it.
i live in cheshire & was arrested in 2004 on a false allegation of sexual assault. the case didnt even make it to court as there was no evidence & the person who made the accusation wouldnt even return to the police station for further questioning. i have never had any problems with the police before but this didnt stop them showing up at my house at 3am with 2 police cars, sirens blaring & 4 officers wen the incident occured. in spite of the case not even making it to court & me being told by both my lawyers & cheshire police that it would not be recorded & i do not have to declare it on any job/visa applications it has all of a sudden been put onto my crb. for the past 4 yrs i have had a clean crb now all of a sudden theyve decided to write “accused of sexual assault 2004….no evidence”. how can that even b there wen the case never even went to court. the crb have blamed the police & the police have admitted they dont klnow why its on their but are blaming the crb. the whole time nobody wants to accept responsibility I have lost several job offers & i dont know how many companys this has been sent to nor how many people have heard about it via word of mouth. its ridiculous wen u consider the case was dropped due to no evidence, the complainant wouldnt even attend further interviews & the complainants brother himself at the time told the police that she had a habit of making up accusatins against people.
I moved into the house im in 9years ago has we needed more space for the kids, i thought it was a good move, well i was wrong. within the first year i had youths smashing the windows saying we were grass’s, then the car got smashed then one thing lead to another with people making threats towards me and my family,on all ocasions i contacted the police they looked into it with no feedback. whilst all this was going on one of my sons who was four at the time was accused of sexulised behavour in school.which teaching staff disclosed to parent in the area.From this our windows was smashed again. Then an allegation was made against me from a child in that school of indecent assalt. which i was arrested for then released with no charges. myself, partner and three son had to pick up the pieces. We thought it was all over yet we was wrong. at this time i was working wiht the local council making the area a better place to live by building two football teams which was runing great. setting up a tenents association for the area that was untill we brought in other youth agences. we started taking some of the youth out on trips. Things were going fine the area was looking better. i even stop a man who was being stabed just outside my house early in the year and was rewarded with a comondation from the police. Well i seen things in a diferent light, people saying how well i was doing in helping the area it made me feel proud to live in salford. then it happen one of the youth who came on a trip was related to the man i had arested for wounding that year, we went on a trip to sale water park with other youth workers were this kid constantly cryed for help once he was out in the water. i decided to tell him that due to him constantly fearing his own safety on the water it would be better for him to stay on shore. He called me some names but i just dismissed it not knowing what was to come. The day came to an end and we all went to get changed. this young lad stayed round the corner from myself as we all got changed the other worker was at the other end nearer to the lad. there were other adults with groups of youths in the changing room at the time. We left and returned home. only to fined that a couple of days later an alligation had been made by that youth. i was arrested again social services were involed and our live were riped to bits. this was found to be unproven yet my CRB is marked with it. To top it of the FA suspended me and this as gone on now for two years. today dated 10-4-09 the FA have given my name,age,street name out to all football clubs in my area and reason why im not allowed to be involed in youth football. all this from trying to bulid a better comunity. im not been charged nor been to court. yet still live with my three children and partner. im now unemployed with no propect to look forward to thanks to false aligation. AND ALL I WANT HIS MY LIFE BACK AND CLEAR MY NAME.
14 years ago during a familly dispute my niece of 14 years old, jumped over me for a matters
of food and I defense myself , a claims was made entirely unsubtantiated without i know it
my record was spoilt, when on my CRb the police cautions, reprimands and warnings none of
these were recorded .
Please, i just needs to clear my name , who can help me i need a good lawyerto do a action
against the police. Can all people who get problem with their CRB come together to make
an association . We All want our life back and clear our neme
My son is going through this at the moment. A girl claimed to police that my son sexually assaulted her. The next day she admitted on a social forum that she had made it up and was drunk and upset about him rejecting her…but he was arrested and that fact alone (despite not being charged) has meant he has a record of it on his CRB. To make matters worse he has been made redundant and now fearful of applying for anything in case it shows up!
Thanks all for your comments. Your problems further highlight the unintended consequences of a law designed with admirable motives. We do need to find a way of protecting people that doesn’t penalise those who’ve never done anything wrong. I will continue to highlight these injustices and campaign for a fairer solution.
Rick
jenny wrote:
My son is going through this at the moment. A girl claimed to police that my son sexually assaulted her. The next day she admitted on a social forum that she had made it up and was drunk and upset about him rejecting her…but he was arrested and that fact alone (despite not being charged) has meant he has a record of it on his CRB. To make matters worse he has been made redundant and now fearful of applying for anything in case it shows up!
I sympathise with him, and you, because that’s exactly the problem I had, I’m employed again now within the education sector, but, it’s just so easy to accuse someone of something they MIGHT NOT have done, and the police, they have to act upon complaints etc, you know I am not critical of the police here at all, if the complaint is against a possible crime involving children then they have to ACT.
What annoys me is even after you have been thoroughly investigated, they will still disclose soft information aka WARNINGS, that is how people think about soft information, that’s what damages you, your reputation etc. I’ve never had an accussation against me in my life regard children before, not a single complaint in what could be literally hundreds of schools that I taught in, not one, until i was arrested.
The crb checks, well they have occured because of what richard rightly describes as admirable motives. And they are admirable.- *SOFT INFO* - We have to remember though the CRB check was introduced because of Ian Huntley’s crimes, but the crb checks don’t always work as they were planned to, Neil Challis comes to mind here. However in themselves the crb checks are a good thing in my opinion.
But regarding soft information, one person a chief constable shouldn’t be responsible for this disclosure, It can and will lead to people being wrongly accussed, and that is not acceptable. I mean if I was chief constable and I had soft information about someone regard crimes against children, I’d disclose everything I had, wouldnt you? BUT I COULD BE WRONG.
A better system maybe involving a jury-a democracy should be involved for disclosure purposes, we have to give innocent people wrongly accused every chance, that’s a fair system. WE HAVE TO GIVE INNOCENT PEOPLE A PROCEDURE to prove themselves innocent, that’s fair to my mind, and that means giving those people accussed of crimes they might not have committed access to ALL information that led to their arrests.
WE HAVE TO TREAT PEOPLE FAIRLY, i believe we dont.
ed
I am really panicking, two months ago I was arrested during an argument with a doorman who was breaking the law, anyhow after leaving, I was arrested for “potential breach of the peace” I was going to pick up a bag (from elsewhere) and go home, but I think they thought I might end up in an argument.
Anyhow, 4 hours later I was released without charge. Basically told to forget about it, now however I find not only do these things come up on enhanced CRB checks, I was not cautioned so should be innocent in law. The Americans want you to tell them of any arrests, not cautions, not convictions but arrests before going there. I asked the police station a few weeks later how long things were held after reading in Hansard that in Merseyside they hold it for 3 years (thought this was in a question to John Denham in 1993 and they were considering it for 7 years), I was told it was held indefinatly, an arrest without charge, indefinate???? I was then told not to worry about mentioning it on a visa application, they wont know, by the Police (so British police are telling British citizens to commit a federal offence against the Americans, as they said it is just a record on their forces database in one station (would not be shared), in America you would get something like this “expunged” apparently but in Britian they almost never do this. But I am scared, especailly when reading about enhanced CRB’s, its one thing to be cautioned, but they did not even wanting that, thus I am surely innocent. PACE 1984 says custody records must be held for one year minimum, but does not give a maximum, even that would be ok, if they deleated it after a year (the ones without charges) but they dont. Other scary things is I dont know what they use to verify the information. They had a credit card for my name, asked for place of birth and date of birth, hardly seems exhaustive, especially as my place of Birth changes depending on if I say Villiage, town (which the village is in), Borough which all the towns are in or city. I can see people commiting offences finding places and dates of births of people with the same name as them for such verifications, I was not questioned, I was just told to go signed for my stuff to say I had been detained (and that was not a caution I checked carefully). Told go away released without charge, case closed, but its not as if I was released innocent then why will it come up on enahanced CRB’s what if the Americans check things up should I go on holiday their. I know I am not on the National Police Database, but I dont know if the enhanced CRB looks closely at every forces database (seems very time consuming, and working in databases (home office sub contracted ones) I know how records punched in on the fly sometimes/often duplicate, have errors etc.
I am involved with trying to help someone who also has false allegations on her Enhanced CRB Additional Information which is completely blighting her career prospects. It is utterly unjust and compounds the oppression some people have already experienced.
Someone above suggests we need collaborative action, some kind of campaign, to get this flawed and outrageous procedure changed. I’d certainly be willing to contribute to such an effort but don’t feel I have the skills nor personal position to lead it. Have you any idea how we can go about it?
Well, I know that the organisation Liberty have a lot to say on the subject, so they might be a good starting point. I am continuing to publicise the issue on here and using Council and party contacts. But if it’s a coordinated campaign I don’t think I’ve got the necessary skills or position of influence to do it either. I think for now we should carry on pressurising people in positions of power to try and make the system fairer.
I am worried about a similar thing too. I am wanting to go into teaching next year, and am very worried as to my CRB check. In December 2008 I was arrested following a drunken mans allegations that I glassed him! (He was the boyfriend of a girl who used to clean our pub, I had sacked her 2 months previous for gross misconduct).
That said night he just walked up to me and poured a full pint over my head, I poured my drink (less than half a barcardi and coke) over his head. He then turned around and punched me in the face. He was the one who then called Police and claimed I had glassed him!
I was arrested by Cheshire Police!!!! at 5am the next morning, taken away from my 5 month old son who I was breastfeeding at the time! and taken into custody for about 8 hours. I wasn’t allowed to feed my son and was treated abhorrently by the custody officers. One in particular was particularly awful after I requested I needed to breastfeed my son, he opened the hatch and just said “well you shouldn’t be going on nights out having just had a baby and you certainly should have thought about that before glassing someone in the face!” I was absolutely astounded!!
I was never charged, did not even have to accept a caution or warning (too right!) and the man who made the allegation was arrested - but not like me, he was told to report to the police station after he had finished a days work and was given the softly softly approach. I lost a whole day, I had to stop breastfeeding my son as he wouldn’t take to me again after my husband had to feed him formula, my parents lost a days wage as they had to come down to help my husband look after our 2 other children.
Following all this his family has been threatening us, whilst all we are trying to do is run our pub business and bring up our boys. It makes it worse living in a pub as they know where we live! We got an order to prevent any of them coming into the pub, but it still doesn’t compensate that much!
Our 3 year old son is actually scared of police cars and police, his language has been affected too and I have to admit everytime I hear a police car coming through the village I think it’s going to stop where we are! Just the whole police conduct was disgusting and completely disproportionate! Once I regain my composure I have been told to submit a complaint, I am not looking for financial compensation I would just like the officers to be retrained and the custody officer to be warned. I would not like this to happen to anybody else.
I don’t know where I stand with CRB I presume something would be on file there, but yep here is another case of shoddy police work, they just carry on and leave everyone else to pick up the pieces and for the victim to muddle through the sorry mess! I really don’t know whether to even bother applying for teaching as if anything is recorded it’s just going to hamper my chances from stage one. There definitely needs to be a fairer system.
Above incidents sound very familiar-I worked in social work for over 30 years and made the mistake of working with children in residential care for two years in the 1970s-In 1997 a person I worked with then who had psychiatric problems commenced a three year routine of scattering allegations against any worker he could remember-he would withdraw the allegation and then repeat it saying “I really mean it this time”-I was briefly interviewd by the police in 1997 and from then on they made no further contact as they realised this person was an unreliable witness-however my employer made my life a misery, making it clear that i was not wanted, and in 2004 gave me a reference and a severance payment-I worked as an agency worker for over 12 months and then one of my ex-colleagues mentioned “in passing” to the agency that I had left my previous job under a cloud-the agency suspended me and I have not found work since, my CRB check is clear,the social work council checked back through my files over 30 years and have no cause for concern yet I cannot get work because my good name has gone-I am pursuing this through legal routes but ultimately my good name cannot be restored once it has been LOST-Young males considering a social work career should bear in mind that this could happen to anyone and if it does your professional safety is at graet risk.
I agree fully with Rick Baum for his wisdom in handling this issue. I searched the the websites and found that this is a major
problem in the UK now. Including uncorroborated allegations not even reached to court in the CRB is nothing but just complete damage
damage to so many innocent people. It is important to protect vulnerable adults and children but it have to be dome
appropriately without going to the extreme and damaging many families and individuals for the rest of their life by the police
force. CRB system and relevant information is not well determined and it should be reviewed to improve it. If you want to see
the coin you have to look to both sides and any event of life both sides of the pictures are important. CRB got two side one is
to protect the public (one of the public is the person applied for CRB himself) and the other side is to protect the human right
of the individual him/herself from the unfair CRB check when containing unproven allegations. Even conviction in the USA system
there is a time limit for these to get dropped and similar thing should be taken in the UK.
It is the efforts of Rik Baum and the other MPs to raise these issues in the Parliament. Every one should write to his MP and
the media. The CRB is becoming against human rights and it induce a state of policing and fear. The idea of forming a group or association against the present CRB flaunt role is good.
If I would like to vote in the next election this would go to wise people like Rik and his party for being wise and intelligent and working for a better change in a more civilised and advanced country not those keeping it bureaucratic and police force country.
I too have had similar experiences. I was arrested in 2005 on alleged theft from a charity i was working part time at as well as working part time at the local authority as a social worker. After 11 months and two long interviews the police had nothing to pursue. However when i applied to another local authority one year later i found that all the details of the arrest allegations and what the CPS had to say were on my CRB even though i had no cautions or convictions. I have tried to clear this up but the union Unison say that there is nothing can be done and so do some solicitors. I have even had solicitors saying they wouldn.t know where to start with the CRB. I have written to them as the information was incorrect and all they have done is changed one word which was my job title at the time. I feel it is a breach of human rights when a person hasn.t been charged as it is impossible to apply for another job or do agency when this is on a persons CRB and as for it remaining indefinately its disgusting. I don.t know where to turn to now for help with this but I certainly won.t let this remain as it plights my career and casts a shadow of doubt over a persons character which is totally wrong.
Dear Richard
I read your article from the above subject and it seems that it is not only in that area you described where there is injustice.
My experience of trying to find work in housing is like going into a dessert minefield.
I will explain.
Most of the jobs advertised do not bring the employee into contact with vulnerable old people or young children at all. Most jobs are desk bound - sitting in front of a computer and the only contact with other people who are non employees is over the phone.
There are some areas where if a car is essential for the post then it can be supposed that the person will at some stage be going out to meet residents.
The problem is an employer will look at any CRB and draw his or own inference even if the nature of the persons criminal past is not related to sexual offences (which is why the CRB was set up in the first place).
I have two CRB’s which go back to 1989 and 1996/97 and they are not in any way related to sexual offences. They don’t have any relation to embezzlement or financial impropriety. The year is 2009 which makes the first one over 20 years old and the other around 12. They are spent. I did not have anything to do with the second offence but was tried at a magistrates court; and there you don’t get the justice you deserve. I also had – what can only be described as a weak defence solicitor – whose only interest was the legal aid fee. But, that is history!!
There should be a change in the system of information that should be available to housing organisations and local authorities. What I mean is:
If the offences are not sexual or not financial and those being offered a position are not on any banned list ( I know there are a few – but I don’t know the titles or names) then previous convictions should be ignored and the CRB should return a blank or clear CRB for that person.
A lot of black people were harshly discriminated in the 70’, 80’s under the sus laws and charged with so many offences. Being told that these offences would one day be spent and that the hand of time would allow that person to move on with their lives has been reversed. A lot of black people (and I only say this from a black perspective) will have no opportunities for work in the future. In fact, Richard, the whole country is at a disadvantage because of this. The government is making millions out of these CRB requests. But, I think there has to be a policy change on housing organisations and local authorities to look carefully at the application forms they are sending out with the proviso that all applicants must undergo a CRB check, especially when there is absolutely no opportunity for some of the positions that they are advertising will put them in the company of young children or vulnerable adults.
A lot of people resent the idea of their past history of offences being dug up; specially, when 90% of people with criminal convictions want to move on with their lives. And that is partly why a lot of positions are not being filled with the right people.
A lot of people who work in housing come from Africa where there is no data base to seriously know their criminal activities as there is no system set up. A lot of people from Africa use a variety of names to beat the CRB system – also the immigration system. But, I am not writing on this issue.
I can’t even get an interview because as soon as I disclose my previous convictions (even before pre interview) I am not even being selected for short listing, let alone an interview.
This type of process is being duplicated all around organisations (outside housing) which don’t even have a social network with social services, the council and local authorities, housing associations, ALMO’s etc.
Does this current government want to displace so many people who have good qualifications from working in today’s society, or are we all going to be a statistic of people who will never be employed because the way the system, policy of organisations and CRB disclosure is firmly placing people in an unemployable situation.
There are so many areas of concern that I have and I would like you to hear the views more; and from my sister who has very strong views on this. Perhaps not with my sister as she is a bit hot headed.
It is a shame that I am trying to work in the housing sector and being knocked back time and time again; especially as my aim is to gain a degree in a housing related course – having recently completed my level 3. I am not interested in other jobs and that is why I am unemployed. Why should I try and do a job when my qualities and qualifications are geared towards the housing sector?
I have an interview with a nursing agency today and I think I’m going to pull out. In 1990 I was arrested on suspicion of possessing a controlled substance (1g of cannabis they said) and 2 counts of suspicion of possession of offensive weapons. It was all a fabrication by the Met who were training up some new officers in a riot van cruising in East London and decided to pick on me. They made up things that I was supposed to have said and done, and I only managed to get it dropped by the CPS because they copied each other’s spelling mistakes and gramatical errors.
Time moves on and I am a registered nurse, having practised as a specialist for a number of years in the NHS. Now I’m in management and the post-Soham era is upon us, and when I looked into doing relief work at the bedside again I find out that there’s some really woolly information as to what gets disclosed on enhanced CRB’s and this arrest record, which may or may not exist anymore, may or may not be disclosed, and may or may not be viewed to be a reason to not employ me.
Nobody can provide straight answers, and if I blot my copy book now, how will I come back from this in the future?
Is it not against any law? It seems there is no point whatsoever having a justice system as in the world of the enhanced CRB, any accusation or event recorded by the police is equal to a conviction in it’s effect on employers. It will also open the floodgates to malicious persons as when it becomes common knowledge that one accusation is a real life/career wrecker, it will be a common practice to make a passing and then retracted accusation. As long as the police record it, then the person’s career is, in all likelihood finished.
ok ok ENOUGH .. Question is this, is there any one , body or other wise able to STOP/PREVENT/ASSIST people over there CRB’s .. no point what so ever in putting your personal history down like this for every one to read.. UNLESS we can get HELP.. please feel free to email me.. after 30 years doing the same job, different company’s I might add..I now find it difficult to get a job.. REASON perpetual offender!!! from the age of 16 to 19.. I am now 54 ;(( work that one out…
I have been contacted by a firm of solicitors advertising themselves as able to help with CRBs. I have no connection to them beyond their email to me (and my reply to it), and I don’t know if they’re any good or anything. But their website is www.chrissaltrese.co.uk. There are also other solicitors’ firms able to help with CRBs that can be found on internet search engines etc.
There are also a couple of forums available for people falsely accused. Try www.pafaa.org.uk and www.pacso.co.uk.
Again, I have no idea of the quality of these sites or of the people behind them. They’re completely independent of me, this site and the Lib Dems.
thank you Richard..
Richard thanks for the links as a newly accused they have been a lifeline ,How many more of us out there….
Hi, I was 18 years old when I was cautioned on the grounds of theft 9 years ago, I took an item from a shop worth £20.00.
I am planning to do my teacher Training either the GTP/PGCE next year September 2010.
I am worried that my cautuion will affect my application form and the Universities will not consider me. I have worked as a Teaching Assistant for the last two years in a School. I am a mature adult and never in a 100 years will consider getting into troblue with the police.
Last month I wrote to the Metropolitan Police to ‘STEP DOWN’, they have written back to me saying ‘On the 19th October 2009 a judgement by the court of appeal in London supported retention of criminal convictions on the PNC for policing purposes. All convictions will be reatined on the PNC until an Individual’s 100th birth date’
I was so shocked to hear this. I did something stupid 9 years ago and now this is going to be kept on my file until I am 100 years old.
In additional the caution always comes up on the enhanced CRB and everytime I tell my new employer about the caution on my CRB, I always feel like she/he is looking down at me and making her/his judgement about me.
I wish the Police could erase something silly like this, therefore I will be able to get a good teaching Job.
A simple caution is not a criminal conviction, but it will be recorded on the police database now this will affect my entire career life. I am stressed out. Help!
Roksana
Hi Roksana,
I sympathise with your situation, which I think highlights exactly the problem we now have in retaining information which is years old and related to tiny offences.
However, the PNC is not the same as the CRB, and I do have more sympathy with retaining information on the former than on the latter. Just because the info is on the PNC does not mean that it will make its way onto your CRB form necessarily. Don’t be put off applying to be a teacher because of this. It clearly hasn’t stopped you being a TA, even though it does still come up on your disclosure. I think this disclosure is out of proportion, and you may want to write to the Chief Constable about this specific issue, clarifying that you mean your CRB and not the PNC.
Rick
I had this problem. I was convicted in 1961 for carrying an offensive weapon. I didn’t carry any offensive weapon, I didn’t do anything wrong at all, but because the person involved was a ‘pillar of society dentist’ who I threatened because he sexually molested my girlfriend at the time, the Magistrate believed him rather than me, and I got a 3 Month prison sentance suspended for 2 years.
The whole thing was a farce. Basically, I went to his surgery to tell him his fortune, and because I had a piece of chain in my Motorcycle crash helmet (used for locking my bike up), this lying arsehole of a dentist told the police that I had taken it out, and threatened him with it. Absolute nonsense, although, having said that, I should have wrapped it round his perverted miserable neck!
Now, in 2009 my Enhanced CRB has come back STILL showing this conviction. Fortunately my employer has seen the time difference, and I have got the job, but it made me very angry indeed to think that a job was severely jeopardised by a conviction sitting on my file from 48 YEARS ago.
I think it’s time that this whole CRB nonsense was sorted out, and that when a “crime” is spent it should be removed from the records.
Having spoken to a solicitor about it, it is clear that such convictions (even when falsely attributed to a person, are NEVER taken off the system. That stinks to me. Basically you are knackered for life.
I really sympathise with all your above stories.
However I am going through a similar situation but am completely innocent of a false accusation.
Some of the above have admitted various misdemeanors and are now worried about their effect.
I don’t even have the luxury of knowing I once commited an offence.
I would love to have my good name restored as despite every effort I have been sidelined.
The problem I have is that if a group was to get together to fight unfair crb’s I wouldn’t like to be classed alongside people who had previously admitted offences. Harsh but true.
A nightmare scenario would be the groups actions were discredited when someone claiming to be innocent was subsequently found to be lying.
I have had a nervous breakdown over CRB and thinking I had an arrest record and ended up with an arrest record, basically (as shown on the 05.22.09 on this (Guess thats May 22 2009) I was arrested “to prevent a potential breach of the peace” released and told to forget about it. At the time of the arrest I thought a breach of the peace was “unlawful political protesting”, was confused as I was headed away from a sitatuation where I had been a victim of crime and reported a crime to a policeman (door supervisor failing to disaplay - Criminal offence with 5,000 pound fine and 6 months imprisonment.
I thought I was being arrested to stop me going where I was going, I did not realise the officer was arresting me as I stopped walking away from the doorman who called him on me, however I stopped moving away from him as I went to the policeman for protection. I then spent the entire time trying to convince them (and the custody sergent that I was not going to where they wanted me to go - as I thought that was where they did not want me to go.
The thing with Breach of the peace in England is that howell defines that |”There could not be a breach of the peace unless an act was done or threatened to be done which either actually harmed a person or, in his presence, his property or was likely to cause such harm or which put someone in fear of such harm being done.”
In Biddy Vs Cheif constable of Glouster a Baliff was arrested as a police officer thought a person having goods removed might hit the Baliff, in Peter Thatchells case it was as they thought Mugabee’s bodygaurds were going to hit him when he tried to arrest Mugabee. It can also be if an officer thinks your about to hit someone.
So having been released not knowing what I had done I later found a file saying I had been arrested for refusing a police instruction to move on. Odd I thought, I thought I was arrested for requesting a police instuction having stopped as I thought the officer might want to talk to me, one of the first things he said was my bag was at the place I was going, so I said I am going back to get my bag, he kept repeating that and I kept trying to tell him that was where I was going, it looks as though he thought I meant I was going back to where I was going, so I went to the officer and his inspector to explain 5 months later (having started to break down not knowing if the police thought I was the one who was going to hit or be hit “non conviction information”. They were aggressive, did not want to discuss things, then to my horror said it was the most minor of minor offences, I had reasoned that as no offence had been committed I could still use the visa waiver and have no visa issues as a result of the arrest, as I was never arrested for an offence.
I further detoriated, started talking to the police standards authority, as having not been told of the reason for the arrest even 5 months later when I had visa, security check and CRB questions to put to them and they walked out I beleived I was treated illigally under Section 28 of PACE and Artical 5 paragraph 2 of the European convention on Human rights - that you have to be told even if obvious the reason for the arrest in terms you understood - they just said breach of the peace and did not explain what it meant - so remembering from politics GCSE that a group of people who absailed into the commons for breach of the peace thought it was protesting without police permission etc. Then on Howell thought I was involved in a police incident of voilence and tried to get them to explain to me who the police thought the voilence would come from. I detoriated, afraid to go formal incase it made things worse, and uncertain if to take (NORTHUMBRIA) police to court to force them to undertake section 28 PACE as there officers were not carrying out there duty, and there custody sergents where shouting over the top of people when they tried to explain the situation.
The attacks got worse and worse, the worry, the stress, not knowing what breach of the peace was what to do, or what would happen. Then oneday I flipped out, I had an Anxiety attack seeing police (who I had been terrified of since being thrown in a van not allowed to explain then finding I had an arrest record for stopping to talk to a police officer and remove myself from a potentially violent situation. I became afraid of being arrested for doing nothing everytime I saw them, the police standards said no offence had been committed and I had committed no offence, but trying to talk to the officer he just yelled “you provoked him” and would not even establish the facts - lets not forget that night he dropped me off at the station and I never saw him again, and no-one interviewed me to establish the facts. I was told I should have disputed it at the time, how could I dispute what I did not know.
I over the follwing months lost most of my hair started hitting myself, I was inocent but they gave me an arrest record, and do not care about visa’s etc, and have written a prima facia case with no relevance to the facts, then had a break down phoned the police during the aniexiety attack about CRBs and still not being able to say I was not engaged in a course of action likely to cause a breach of the peace as I was walking away. The I saw a fire engine, by this point I was terrified of everything, and thought fire engine there must be a fire, I had better report it or I will get arrested, I then accidently phoned the police to report a fire-engine. A little later I was arrested for wasting police time. They fingerprinted me, they DNA’d me, then the different custody sergent saw I was blabbering case law, he then said what I had thought until the Inspector yelled at me its the most minor of minor offences, “I was not arrested for an offence, and that a preventative arrest for breach of the peace is no reflection on your character, it is not counted as an arrest for CRB, or APCO certificates it is just designed to detain until the possibilty of a breach is over, like Peter Thatchells who has no visa problems. They gave me a penaulty notice for disorder so now I have something to worry about, they took my fingerprints and DNA and put me on the national computer. Also for those with non recordable offences (including I believe drunk and disorderly) they will rarely show on a CRB non conviction information as fingerprints and DNA are not taken so they may have the wrong person or identity theft and cant prove it was you. I did not know any of this, I just knew that I had never spoken to a policeman (other than one pull over for drink driving - he was pleasant and the breathaliser went green, he even applogised for pulling me over - I said no problem (felt it was nice they were trying to catch drink drivers) - though I was scared at the time the baileys I had drank 2 days earlier would show - when I said that I think he thought he would get a result as people who say they have had a little often show, but I showed no alcohol in the system.
So being yelled at in a meeting by a constable and an inspector “you were released into common law” thinking that meant released without charge no further action, not something even worrying than that - common law arrest not a criminal law arrest - I am not a lawer, and was too messed up to see a solicitor (which I was not offered at the original arrest) thinking I would go to a solicitor if I find a clear case to bring against the police. I became convinced I had done something.
As they could see I had had a breakdown over a mishandled arrest they gave me a PND, which would affect jobs, visas and I have been off work for 2 months on mental health grounds and am on anti axiety pills, all of which could have been avoided had they talked me though it at the meeting 5 months after the event and told me something strange, Howell has said in 1981 that a breach of a peace is not just shouting, but NORTHUMBRIA police say thats a criminal law breach of the peace, there is no such thing as a criminal law breach of the peace, NORTHUMBRIA police think breach of the peace at common law can be just shouting.
Raymond. I feel sorry for you. I have to admit reading your story that I suspect you suffer from some form of mild paranoia. Don’t take that as an insult.
Let me just explain why I think it is relevant.
I as mentioned have been falsely accused of a crime by someone anonymously via a crimestoppers report. The person reporting the crime did it maliciously realising that through crimestoppers they had no chance of being caught or identified. I am of a strong frame of mind and very independent having been a successful businessman for years.
However I have been pushed to my limits living with the information on file. I have lost work and I am frustrated and frightened by the totally inflexible unsympathetic arrogant and ignorant attitude of the police and the Information Law Officers and the Professional standards department. All of whom see following government policy ahead of common sense , the Data protection act , the Human rights act and Home office guidelines on recorded information.
I don’t or never have had paranoia , however my experience has made me crumble at the frustration and fear my experience has caused. I can’t look at my eleven year old daughter now without holding back tears not knowing if I will be able to support my family or ever treat my kids to anything special ever again as I have effectively lost all chance of getting employed.
I also despair regarding enhanced CRB checks. In my case it was a vindictive ex wife delaying the sale of our joint property as she resides within it and my adopted son who is mentally ill and conveniently forgot to take his medication. Police came to arrest me over an alleged threatening e mail to my son which I believe and my daughter and others that my son sent it to himself. The police did not arrest me and to clear my name I took it to Court. Basically there was no case to answer and the easiest and less costly way (even though it still cost £3000)was to undertake joint undertakings which in law nothing was proved. The alleged e mail now appears on my CRB and one Social Care agency Reeds(whom I’ve worked for before) would not register me. Besides the untrue allegation relating to me there is also my sons information on it how he’s threatened to poison family members and took a firearm into College etc., All my life I have worked with and given my all to children, elderly and the vulnerable in society and this is how I am repaid. Thank you very much to the government for their support.
There should be a time limit after which none conviction information recorded on disclosures and CRB certificates becomes ’spent’ as in the case of criminal convictions. The information should not be kept and recorded indefinite as it is at present.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/CRB-Disclosures/
Well since 12/12 things have taken a good turn, sadly not that good regarding the second incident.
When I went to see an officer and his Insoector they were inististing nothing could be done, as I was worried by the Visa waiver for being arrested, I was at my wits end. Then however they made me think I had done something “non conviction”. I did not know what, and despite it being 5 months after they arrested and released me they were still not explaining why I was arrested.
Police Standards agree I was procedually unlawfully detained, that they did not follow PACE, that I should have been told more, that no crime was committed and as it was for a potential offence they should not have written the reports like they prevented it (its not like conspricicy) most significantly that the officer did not have a reason to arrest as I had already left the area and thus prevented a Breach of the Peace myself, although I at the time of this preventative arrest to prevent a potential breach of the peace was not relevant. They also centred on the police use of the word potential, which confused me as I was trying to get the policeman at the time to explain the observational techniques to prove or disprove the potential, he could have ended it all in a minute by saying he just wanted nothing to happen and then let me go, basically in these cases the police normally just issue a moveon instruction, I however had no idea he wanted me to move on as I had already done so.
Standards read the crimestoppers report which they got and showed them I did not know what was happening. They brushed it under the carpet as such as they could see they messed up.
Had that happend before the arrest for wasting police time, whilst I was ill with worry and possibly drink spiked and trying to understand the caselaw, then it would have been fantastic, I would have not only been arrested for having committed no offence, but also the grounds of the arrest would have been wrong. I thus as I was asking all along would have disproved a potential offence
The second arrest means I am still on the PNC, still off sick from work, still on medication for the trauma. I will be writing to the cheif constable, also pointing out that I had gone up the chain of command before the second incident and the area commander had not got back to me over a complaint about the conduct of an Inspector, but I do not hold out much hope of getting deleated and the DNA etc removed.
Had in England like in Scotland the norm been to detain rather than arrest (until evidence is procured to make an arrest) then none of this would have happend, that would be a start point, especially as the visa waiver has no issues with people detained as in America it is common to be detained and questioned without arrest.
We may get things changed if we were all to get together and Campaign as we are strong in numbers, not sure how to do this any suggestions, feel free to contact me at lynn.pearce3@ntlworld.com
Hi - for all those affected by the police caution for minor offences - I urge to you sign the following website.
If possible also try to link the page using the Facebook button or posting the page on your Facebook profile.
You can visit my website for further information about the issue as Lynne Pearce says; click on the campaign button on my site.
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/stepdowncautions
David
Step It Down SID
Hi about 6yrs ago i was in with the wrong people and got into a bit of bother. now i am tring to get my life
up and running the passed is holding me back. how can i start again? does it ever clear? does it clear after so many years
My partner worked with violent kids at a school for 6 years without a problem untill one night when his back was turned afew of the lads stole his phone and sent messages to a girl at another school before returning phone to his coat pocket. My partner was then called to heads office the following day where they asked for his phone which he handed over willingly as he was unaware of what was going on. They checked for this girls number on his phone and checked through the messages before telling him what they were doing. He was very shocked by what was happening. He was suspended and not allowed on the school premises while they investigated despite him saying that he hadn’t done anything. When the boys that stole his phone from his jacket pocket found out that he had been suspended they came forward and admitted what they had done. Th police of course dropped the investigation because my partner was innocent and a victim of these lads just being that way out. Unfortunately now he cannot get a job in care, a job which he loved doing because he is extremely good at dealling with violent kids, he has such a gentle patient nature but this has been ruined now by one act of stupidity by a bunch of teenage kids. They were never told that there actions resulted in ruining someones career and they would be gutted that their actions did this to my partner. He has been to the Police and the crb and asked why this hasn’t been wiped off but he’s just been told it won’t, it’ll stay there and they have to declare it when a crb is done. It doesn’t even state on the crb that it was dropped due to it being proven that it was unfounded. I understand that you have to protect these kids but what about protecting people who work with these kids and get accused. Working with violent kids is difficult because if they have a bad day and they don’t like what you say they act out and do make accusations like this, as far as they see it at the time they are just ” having a go at you ” and i’m quoting from someone who said that one day after she accused a carer of raping her because she was having a bad day and she’d been told off so she got her own back!!! This poor carer wasn’t even her carer but worked at the other school, he was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. He can’t get work now either!!!!!
Like I said I know these kids need protection but it should work both ways and these people that are accused and found to be innocent should be allowed to have these marks removed from their crb’s.
Give it long enough and people will no longer want these jobs because they are seen as too much of a risk, one day you face might not fit and find yourself labelled as a sexul predator!!!
i had a crb check in 2005 which i asume was a standard check it came back clear even though id been arrested and taken to court for supposidly assauting a police officer who had beat me up in my own house and broken my ribs id put a complaint in to the pca and when it went to court they would not provide my solicitor with the custody medical records then tried to reduce it to resissting arrest which i refused basically i got pissed of going to court 3 times by then i asked my solicitor how they would feel i dropped the complaint against the officer then heypresto all charges were dropped agaist me and i was bound over for 6 months which the judge said was not a conviction and my solicitor said i would not have a crimminal recored as i said in 2005 i had crb and it did not show,,how ever 2007 my ex wife made a false allegation about me sending a threatning tex and harrassing her by tex i was arressted strip searched and questioned forn 6 hrs while at the police station the officer as i was waiting to book in made reference to the previous arrest when i said i was never convicted and it should not show up he said and i quote they always show up if we look, the policeman who was interviewing me was 5 weeks out of hendon the duty solicitor said it was a joke, when i asked the officer ware my ex,s phone was for evedence because they had taken mine for forensics he said oh she just said you sent the tex and had not even seen her phone when i explained wot a cock he was and that my ex had been sleeping around and sending me the pictures of it and had got me arrested to piss me off and so i would not go near her which i wouldnt have anyhow when she had sobbered up and realized wot she had sent me in said i would be quite happy for them to c the contents of my phone and hers they let me go on bail then when i was due to go back my solicitor could not get hold of the officer then then bail date was moved again in the end they told my solictor they were not proceeding with it any further, basically now i have applied for a chefs job in a nursing home i have been given it and am now stressing especially after reading this site it will show on the crb,,,,bummer
I have resigned myself to a life on the dole,I had a job spent years training to qualify.One false statement by one person ,No police action no courts evolved yet I am asked to leave my job and not reapply.The words guilty even if you can prove yourself innocent makes it a no win situation even if you win.And this is within UK laws ……………….
Hi, I have been pulling my hair out regarding two cautions I accepted rather than go to court with the accusers knowing they were lying and that their friends would also lie and no doubt I would have ended up with a criminal record. Sadly, because every job requires a CRB check now I may as well have a criminal record or at least not have agreed to accepting either caution but thrown myself in a court situation where, at least, I may well have won both cases. As both accusations were malice and I had proof, particularly with the first that the woman who attacked and whom I defended myself against had a desire to hurt maybe even kill me as threatened. The second I accepted when a drunk entered my home and when I ejected him he made up a pack of lies to the police who then said touching someone with a feather duster is technically assault and I would lose in court if I continued to plead not guilty. What about ejecting a trespasser using the minimum amount of force. Anyone who is locked in a cell and left to stew basically and is subsequently treated like a hardened criminal will know where I am coming from. My life is in tatters and these people who were basically jealous and malicious have succeeded in destroying me. The police do not listen nor care they were just interested in getting a nick. The first lot said it would not affect me at all but was just a slap on the wrist and would only last five years. Yes true but it is on a CRB check forever and although it is common assault charges they look very serious and most jobs do not want someone deemed to be violent. So what happens the next time someone wants to attack me? As the first duty solicitor said glibly “Then you will be a victim”. Yeh right.!!!!! Especially when they threaten to kill my family. I do not think so Mr Blair, Mr Brown, and the whole damn police force. When it suits.